The past governments that did positive things had a good mix of intellectual grunt and ethics, the shallowness of this gang will be a long lasting stain on our history
Sadly, I think this is the future. The "Right" all around the world has just decided they don't need facts or evidence to support their decisions - they just need to impose their ideology as quickly and deeply as they possible can, and to keep "progressives" out of power as long as possible, by any means possible. I can't decide whether the "Left" should just do the same or not. If the "Left" keep playing by the rules, then the "Right" will always be making two steps forward for every one step backwards, and vice versa. But do I want to support people who just ignore how things should be done? If the "Left" abandon their ethics on how to make good policy based on facts and evidence, then it may become as dangerous as having the "Right" behaving how they do now.
Does anyone have an answer? should the "Left" hobble themselves from doing more good by behaving properly, or should they just play the "Right" at their own game?
No, the "Left" has to have integrity and honesty - it's the long game of what kind of society/world we want. I'm a Green voter and that is what I vote for. The process decides what happens in the end.
👍💯 I think it is possible to be more ruthless while retaining integrity & honesty. Past arguments have been "if we do this (use urgency for example) then a right-wing govt will use that as an excuse to do the same" - well, many of those arguments are gone eh ⁉️ The people driving policy in this coalition don't need an excuse 🤬
The left should definitely not stoop to the gutter level politics of the right. Principles should not be abandoned just because the going gets tough.
What they do need to do is make it very clear what they stand for, what they intend to do to make things better for all kiwis now and in the future and be able to explain how their policies will benefit society. It would also help if they were to make it clear that in any coalition of the left, the tail won’t be wagging the dog.
It’s also useful when refuting the right wing policies, to be able to logically dismantle them. Chippy, Barbara, Kieran, Chloe and Marama are particularly good at this.
I've thought long and hard for years, off and on, about your question, Martin....I strongly suspect that if we the Left start playing the Right at their own game, we just become ineffectual because too much nicer/Centrist copies of the Right...and the Netflix TV series "Borgen" about Danish politics shows what happens nicely I think....at present my theory therefore leans strongly towards this: that there is a natural cycle in human affairs where things have to get really bad under the Right, as in devolving into chronic warfare, before society breaks down into a depression and finally enough people wake up and start supporting the Left again...so if a generation is about 25 years, then we tend to go through two generational (roughly 50 years) swings to the Right followed by the next fifty years being a swing back to the Left, because it takes two generations for people to forget the hard lessons learned under Right Wing austerity and fascist elitist hedonism.
Playing by the rules doesn’t seem to work, so let’s give the ‘left’ the authority to play dirty for a while, trust the new young folk to know what needs to be done - and we can fix democracy later…
😱 That would mean electing gutter politicians & once they are in you have no control of them because they have no shame & no ethics. You cannot "fix democracy later" if it goes beyond a tipping point 🤷
That comment is not acceptable under any circumstances. There is plenty of legitimate criticism of the American political system. Your disgusting anti-semitic comment is both vile and factually wrong.
Really look where the money came from for Trump's election most of the people in his team are Jews call it what you like it's true. You only have to look at Israel & how much money they suck out of the American taxpayer to see who's running the show.
The arrogant belief that they, CoC are correct, and everyone else is deranged, wet and whiny, or to quote the Atlas line Seymour is fond of offering, "Smart people know....." so if you disagree you are not smart according to our self appointed Regulator. For these failures to be called Statesmen or women... the mind boggles.
Today David is holding a rally in shed 10 in the viaduct with a "international visitor" and is quoting such weirdisms as "purity tests". I do hope very few people attend except for protestors. It's at 2 pm if you want to go and protest. I do hope David heads off to the Atlas mountains soon! I was at the Ceasefire Rally yesterday in Devonport. Green Party co-leader gave a rousing, heart felt wonderful speech, reminding us that many there at the rally, had relatives in Gaza, who are suffering in an intolerable genocide. I can't believe the cowardly coalition remains silent in the face of such evil. Erica has still not issued one humanitarian visa as far as I know. Good on the Greens, Helen and others speaking out. It's pretty awful out there!
As a young worker, I detested Bolger who was the Minister of Labour under Muldoon. His reign as PM let Ruth Richardson and Bill Birch run amok. Now he is 90 I guess I can be a tiny bit more forgiving. He did a good job chairing the Fair Pay Agreements development group.
You are so right about Helen C. She was PM when I was an MP for my first term and I never felt left out or put down despite being a lowly backbencher. John and I slept on her floor in her little New York apartment when she was at the UNDP. We still talk.
Then Jacinda, Grant, Chippy et al. I was a Gracinda voter from the beginning in the leadership contests. I was labelled an ABC. There’s nothing like working close up and personal with great people to see who is genuine.
The one who is definitely NOT a leader is Winston Peters. His legacy will be one of disruption, seeking out self interest for political gain, and now completely mad stuff because he gains a few points in polls for going full on anti-woke, whatever the fuck that means.
Absolutely agree Darien. Remember well the power Birch had in wage negotiations and the “bloody mindedness against unions. There’s no question Labour have had some tremendous people over the years. Winston is and always has been a grifter looking for a constituency.
Chris Finlayson is another. He h as conservative principles but also integrity. He understands the Treaty of Waitangi as well. This current government is corrupt and ignorant and not too different from the Trump government
Thanks Nick. Imagine a Government made up of our best ever MP’s… the media has much to answer for in ruining the good they could have done. Whether it be constantly harping on about their private lives or demanding that puff pieces be part of our political discourse. The various parties respond with ex-media handlers asking MP’s to do stunts to improve their public perception. From Luxon’s skin-crawling Tik Toks back to Geoffrey Palmer pretending to play the trombone for the cameras. Remember that anyone?
Particularly egregious, was Mr and Mrs Luxon helping out at a food bank (or was it a soup kitchen?) for a couple of hours, at a time when his government was reducing funding to food banks. Why was there not more outrage at that?
Thanks Nick, i think that true leadership requires vision and integrity. Its good if that vision is clearly articulated and we can trust those saying it.
It is great that past leaders speak from their strengths. Sir Geoffrey Palmer was great last week because he has deep knowledge of how the parts of government work and clearly articulated that in the RSB select committee.
Helen Clark is extraordinary in her energy for creating a fairer world and her communication of that. I am astounded that she replies to messages I send her and gives a clear ethical response.
Jim Bolger and Sue Anderson have let us know that the 'new' nats are not like their roots ie they represented a certain constituency but did that with some integrity. Even Jenny Shipley spoke out about the treaty bill.
There are others you mention, who (as people put it ) are still greedily 'feeding at the trough'
The worst aspects of this government for me are that I neither agree with the business based future they envisage for our country nor do I trust them. It feels like they are trying to 'sneak' things past us undercover.
Their sponsors seem to be the only ones to gain from their actions. This because it is covert feels more than collusion. It feels corrupt. They seem to think this is clever. I dont believe any coalition agreement should over rule fundamental aspects of our constitution.
I can't see any of the current lot being trustworthy future advisors.
I hope the left develop and articulate a clear vision of a desired future so that the public can vote for it not just against this current lot.
I didnt yet acknowledge Marilyn Waring. She is an absolute legend and has spent her life committed to researching and advocating equity. Great that she has set up a people's commission on this important area dismissed and rorted by the Coalition.
Sue Wood today was reported as crawling out from under a rock to say' these current Nats are not my Nats - their direction isn't my direction' - and she is one with Nat mana who knows.
Very good points Nick as always. I wish we could somehow incentivise good statespersonship for former leaders. Or those who should shut up, would know when to.
Very frustrating stuff from the "lock 'em up" crowd. One thing I've noticed recently is that we have clear examples in the US (ICE, just about every Trump lacky) where some sort of accountability is called for. But those calling for tribunals for imaginary grievances have made it harder for those of us who might imagine them for demonstrable violations of human rights, democracy and legal norms.
The past governments that did positive things had a good mix of intellectual grunt and ethics, the shallowness of this gang will be a long lasting stain on our history
Sadly, I think this is the future. The "Right" all around the world has just decided they don't need facts or evidence to support their decisions - they just need to impose their ideology as quickly and deeply as they possible can, and to keep "progressives" out of power as long as possible, by any means possible. I can't decide whether the "Left" should just do the same or not. If the "Left" keep playing by the rules, then the "Right" will always be making two steps forward for every one step backwards, and vice versa. But do I want to support people who just ignore how things should be done? If the "Left" abandon their ethics on how to make good policy based on facts and evidence, then it may become as dangerous as having the "Right" behaving how they do now.
Does anyone have an answer? should the "Left" hobble themselves from doing more good by behaving properly, or should they just play the "Right" at their own game?
No, the "Left" has to have integrity and honesty - it's the long game of what kind of society/world we want. I'm a Green voter and that is what I vote for. The process decides what happens in the end.
Definitely you can't compromise when it comes to integrity.
Yep
👍💯 I think it is possible to be more ruthless while retaining integrity & honesty. Past arguments have been "if we do this (use urgency for example) then a right-wing govt will use that as an excuse to do the same" - well, many of those arguments are gone eh ⁉️ The people driving policy in this coalition don't need an excuse 🤬
That is a good point Cindy....OK I'm convinced,,,
The left should definitely not stoop to the gutter level politics of the right. Principles should not be abandoned just because the going gets tough.
What they do need to do is make it very clear what they stand for, what they intend to do to make things better for all kiwis now and in the future and be able to explain how their policies will benefit society. It would also help if they were to make it clear that in any coalition of the left, the tail won’t be wagging the dog.
It’s also useful when refuting the right wing policies, to be able to logically dismantle them. Chippy, Barbara, Kieran, Chloe and Marama are particularly good at this.
I've thought long and hard for years, off and on, about your question, Martin....I strongly suspect that if we the Left start playing the Right at their own game, we just become ineffectual because too much nicer/Centrist copies of the Right...and the Netflix TV series "Borgen" about Danish politics shows what happens nicely I think....at present my theory therefore leans strongly towards this: that there is a natural cycle in human affairs where things have to get really bad under the Right, as in devolving into chronic warfare, before society breaks down into a depression and finally enough people wake up and start supporting the Left again...so if a generation is about 25 years, then we tend to go through two generational (roughly 50 years) swings to the Right followed by the next fifty years being a swing back to the Left, because it takes two generations for people to forget the hard lessons learned under Right Wing austerity and fascist elitist hedonism.
Playing by the rules doesn’t seem to work, so let’s give the ‘left’ the authority to play dirty for a while, trust the new young folk to know what needs to be done - and we can fix democracy later…
😱 That would mean electing gutter politicians & once they are in you have no control of them because they have no shame & no ethics. You cannot "fix democracy later" if it goes beyond a tipping point 🤷
Maybe that's what the Democrats did & look what happened there now they have two right parties bought & paid for by the Jews.
That comment is not acceptable under any circumstances. There is plenty of legitimate criticism of the American political system. Your disgusting anti-semitic comment is both vile and factually wrong.
Too bad it's not factually wrong there is overwhelming evidence to prove their running America because they're so wealthy & powerful.
Really look where the money came from for Trump's election most of the people in his team are Jews call it what you like it's true. You only have to look at Israel & how much money they suck out of the American taxpayer to see who's running the show.
🤬🤬🤬 Consider that vile comment to be totally rejected
Tough it's the truth
Tough cry me a river.
And a very nasty stain at that.
And a very nasty stain at that.
Sorry, I’ve updated Biden to say Harris.
The arrogant belief that they, CoC are correct, and everyone else is deranged, wet and whiny, or to quote the Atlas line Seymour is fond of offering, "Smart people know....." so if you disagree you are not smart according to our self appointed Regulator. For these failures to be called Statesmen or women... the mind boggles.
Patricia: truly “smart people” don’t make comments like that, as it reeks of manipulation, dominance and disrespect.
Bishop redeem himself??? pfft
all pigs feed and ready for take off.....
Today David is holding a rally in shed 10 in the viaduct with a "international visitor" and is quoting such weirdisms as "purity tests". I do hope very few people attend except for protestors. It's at 2 pm if you want to go and protest. I do hope David heads off to the Atlas mountains soon! I was at the Ceasefire Rally yesterday in Devonport. Green Party co-leader gave a rousing, heart felt wonderful speech, reminding us that many there at the rally, had relatives in Gaza, who are suffering in an intolerable genocide. I can't believe the cowardly coalition remains silent in the face of such evil. Erica has still not issued one humanitarian visa as far as I know. Good on the Greens, Helen and others speaking out. It's pretty awful out there!
I predict that second that luxon is nolonger pm - was he ever? - his bags will be packed and he and the family will return to the states
Can't come soon enough!
As a young worker, I detested Bolger who was the Minister of Labour under Muldoon. His reign as PM let Ruth Richardson and Bill Birch run amok. Now he is 90 I guess I can be a tiny bit more forgiving. He did a good job chairing the Fair Pay Agreements development group.
You are so right about Helen C. She was PM when I was an MP for my first term and I never felt left out or put down despite being a lowly backbencher. John and I slept on her floor in her little New York apartment when she was at the UNDP. We still talk.
Then Jacinda, Grant, Chippy et al. I was a Gracinda voter from the beginning in the leadership contests. I was labelled an ABC. There’s nothing like working close up and personal with great people to see who is genuine.
The one who is definitely NOT a leader is Winston Peters. His legacy will be one of disruption, seeking out self interest for political gain, and now completely mad stuff because he gains a few points in polls for going full on anti-woke, whatever the fuck that means.
Absolutely agree Darien. Remember well the power Birch had in wage negotiations and the “bloody mindedness against unions. There’s no question Labour have had some tremendous people over the years. Winston is and always has been a grifter looking for a constituency.
Winston has gone down the rabbit hole big time. He should be put out to pasture for his racist comments that he gets away with
Thanks for the personal testimony Darien...
Chris Finlayson is another. He h as conservative principles but also integrity. He understands the Treaty of Waitangi as well. This current government is corrupt and ignorant and not too different from the Trump government
Beautifully written as always
Thanks Nick. Imagine a Government made up of our best ever MP’s… the media has much to answer for in ruining the good they could have done. Whether it be constantly harping on about their private lives or demanding that puff pieces be part of our political discourse. The various parties respond with ex-media handlers asking MP’s to do stunts to improve their public perception. From Luxon’s skin-crawling Tik Toks back to Geoffrey Palmer pretending to play the trombone for the cameras. Remember that anyone?
Particularly egregious, was Mr and Mrs Luxon helping out at a food bank (or was it a soup kitchen?) for a couple of hours, at a time when his government was reducing funding to food banks. Why was there not more outrage at that?
Thanks Nick, i think that true leadership requires vision and integrity. Its good if that vision is clearly articulated and we can trust those saying it.
It is great that past leaders speak from their strengths. Sir Geoffrey Palmer was great last week because he has deep knowledge of how the parts of government work and clearly articulated that in the RSB select committee.
Helen Clark is extraordinary in her energy for creating a fairer world and her communication of that. I am astounded that she replies to messages I send her and gives a clear ethical response.
Jim Bolger and Sue Anderson have let us know that the 'new' nats are not like their roots ie they represented a certain constituency but did that with some integrity. Even Jenny Shipley spoke out about the treaty bill.
There are others you mention, who (as people put it ) are still greedily 'feeding at the trough'
The worst aspects of this government for me are that I neither agree with the business based future they envisage for our country nor do I trust them. It feels like they are trying to 'sneak' things past us undercover.
Their sponsors seem to be the only ones to gain from their actions. This because it is covert feels more than collusion. It feels corrupt. They seem to think this is clever. I dont believe any coalition agreement should over rule fundamental aspects of our constitution.
I can't see any of the current lot being trustworthy future advisors.
I hope the left develop and articulate a clear vision of a desired future so that the public can vote for it not just against this current lot.
I didnt yet acknowledge Marilyn Waring. She is an absolute legend and has spent her life committed to researching and advocating equity. Great that she has set up a people's commission on this important area dismissed and rorted by the Coalition.
Sue Wood today was reported as crawling out from under a rock to say' these current Nats are not my Nats - their direction isn't my direction' - and she is one with Nat mana who knows.
Great work Nick.
Very good points Nick as always. I wish we could somehow incentivise good statespersonship for former leaders. Or those who should shut up, would know when to.
Very frustrating stuff from the "lock 'em up" crowd. One thing I've noticed recently is that we have clear examples in the US (ICE, just about every Trump lacky) where some sort of accountability is called for. But those calling for tribunals for imaginary grievances have made it harder for those of us who might imagine them for demonstrable violations of human rights, democracy and legal norms.
Excellent read, Nick, thanks.
Absolutely bang on