One thing the voters of AotearoaNZ must never forget. Luxon and his mentor Key are both great fans of the orange man in his big White House. Reading the Korero this morning exposes, for me at least, a very Trumpian influence insinuating itself into our democratic values.
Making it harder for the “bottom feeders” to vote by shortening the time to enrol, changing the boundaries of some of the electoral districts to improve National’s chances of winning an extra seat, Winston Peters’ proposal for only NZ citizens the right to vote, are just some examples of what we’re facing today.
I suggest that all Kiwis, citizens or not, be very aware and very wary of what’s happening. Luxon says he “gets” America and admires its political system. Maybe he should just go there and leave the intelligent people of our country, of whom there are many, to get on with our lives in our own way, in our own slice of Pacific paradise, without the fear of being absorbed into the same sort of political catastrophe we see in the USA. Something to consider is that “just because it’s American, it doesn’t make it right or great”, we have enough “great” already.
I completely agree, Luxon clearly doesn’t understand Aotearoa or relate to most of us. He is a fan of the USA and should go back there, preferably with his tail between his legs.
I remember when he became PM he said something about getting to know him. How do you get to know someone who spends half his time out of the country and the other half refusing to answer questions? I think we know enough now. Surely there’s a deodorant manufacturer in Texas who needs a door-to-door salesman?
The flight crew could possibly bail out once they get going. Someone who used to run an airline should know how to fly. Don’t forget the man that gets things done!! Except when he doesn’t….
Thanks Leonie 🙂. Luxon and Co haven’t had an original idea for the last two years. There’s nothing we’re hearing now that suggests any changes. They’re running scared, perhaps trying a new angle to disrupt the system in their favour. I hope they just keep on running, anywhere but here!!
Like all less than effective trades professionals, blaming your tools for a poor job just doesn't cut it. It's not like MMP is a new system at play here. As Natalia Albert has pointed out, we never fully transitioned to MMP from FPP. The idea of letting a king maker establish a Government can be negated by presenting a coalition complete with an agreed policy platform. That way voters know what they're getting up front.
Id also add that if we strengthened the rold of Parliament as recommended by Sir Geoffrey Palmer et Al, we'd have a much more robust system operating.
I have no sympathy for our Prime Minister at all. He is the numpty, and due to his complete lack of EQ and years of corporate programming, is completely out of his depth! The damage he has done to Aotearoa since taking office is immeasurable!
The Coalition Agreements are the new democracy in this country which excludes what the voting public actually want and voted for. Just as last election, probably a majority of promises currently being made will never come to fruition if elected.
The other nonsense I heard today is the Taxpayers Union-Curia Poll results. These don't seem credible given the performance of particularly National and the Prime Minister recently. We seem to have a lame duck Prime Minister who seems paralysed (probably by the Coalition Agreements), and either will not or cannot discipline the likes of Winston Peters in case it crashes the coalition. Although preferable to FPP, I am sure this is not the version of MMP envisaged by its architects or voters.
However, I take consolation in the fact that the only poll that counts is that on 7th November.
I'm sorry, but I must point out here that the wasteful damage this Coalition has managed to do in one term is exactly what those who were against MMP in the first place predicted could happen...political and therefore social chaos, due to vested and ideological interests of characters that are not in the end truly accountable politically....and David Smirk-Seymour is the classic example of what they were afraid of.
Agree completely with you Kim, particularly the chaos Atlas Network Seymour etc has created. The more difficult question now however, is how to solve this situation and rectify the harm that has been done in such a short time to this once great country of ours.
I expect Christopher’s sponsors will be pleased but his ministers (numptys and yahoos?) will have to face questions while he slips away to the Pacific Island Forum.
It's Sian not Siam but I'll let you away with it, since it did get bandied about as a variation on my name in primary school.
This whole compete to get power kind of government is causing nothing but division.
The only competition should be which candidate for any electorate and which party for party votes best represents the most voters on election day.
Once they are elected, they should all just get on with governing the country, voting as per their voter mandate, compromising as needed to get decisions made, like one big committee. That's the ideal. Why is it so flipping difficult to achieve?
I disagree. It should be more achievable with MMP. We are stuck still with a FPP mindset, and until we lose that, we'll keep getting this win at all costs attitude. Along with all the bribes and oft-undelivered promises of the election year grift.
I think MMP is the best available system. Always have done. I wonder if we would have the government we have now if the recommendations in 2012 been put in place. All this government has done has enforce my resistance to anything longer than a 3 year term until politics evolves enough that there is genuine collaboration for the good governance of all.
Should be, yes BUT very clearly isn't, as WE HAVE NOW SEEN....ideology is a an extremely poor substitute for a practical scientific relationship with reality...unless of course you are insane enough to be unable to allow yourself see/discern the true situation....yes???
No. You will not convince me by insulting my intelligence, Kim.
All we have seen is a particular permutation. And an argument against anything longer than a 3 year term. MMP is still the best method, in my opinion, to provide an inclusive government.
Sorry Sian, it wasn't directed at you in particular, the you was a general you and therefore should have been 'one'....there are many countries world-wide using the MMP system, but I note that they are all much larger than NZ....but Ireland, which is also small, uses STV.....my question is this....maybe MMP is less suitable for small countries....
Nick, that figure for how many voted to change mmp included those who would have preferred the single transferable voting system - so that figure isn't just the ones wanting FFP back.
I'd like to have the STV system - our local council uses it and it seems to work well.
Not withstanding everything you’ve pointed out in this post Nick, I would vote for the reintroduction of first past the post in a heartbeat if it meant ridding the country of Winston Peters and Shane Jones. Now if single transferable voting STV were an option I would vote for this. Why? Well STV immediately gets rid of list members of parliament, an anathema to democracy and public accountability. With MMP we’ve been saddled with all kinds of blowhards who have no electorate to endorse them. Under STV the scenarios you drew to our attention would be avoided since no individual member could be elected without first accruing at least 50% of votes cast via the preferential selection process. We already have a defacto system in operation by thinking voters. I would be a two tick GREEN voter in November, but will vote for a Labour candidate because a GREEN candidate stands no realistic chance and to vote for a GREEN candidate would be to open the door for a BLUE to sneak in via a split GREEN, RED vote. If 40 years have taught us nothing else it is that the tail needs docking!!! To never more be allowed to wag the dog!!!!!!!!!
No not naive. It is just the politicians have managed yet again to game the system by forming coalitions which are rigidly sticking to stuff they (not us) agree for each party to do. That is first past the post behaviour when they claim they have a mandate, but only one more than half the seats and the minor parties in the coalition get too much say.
Suppose we anticipate a continued rise in TOP support. We could have 15 Green, 12 Opportunity and 3 Te Pati Maori say. They with the Wibbly Wobbly timid Labour Party would form a government that has preference for Fair and equitable taxation for Papatuanuku to benefit all citizens and give good healthcare, education, preparation for life working, housing, and volunteering contributors all. All ages and conditions of people covered. Strong flexible public transport. ACC incorporated in the broad ample health care. Wealth of the nation would be first Papatuanuku’s to gift. So equitable tax system with no get outs is the governments first responsibility.
The surge of TOP could be the call for cooperation and collaboration.
MMP was chosen by New Zealand to make the composition of our government representative of all governance views. Logically achieving this while avoiding minuscule parties wagging the dog - and getting more than their justified influence.
Logically an extension of MMP to achieve an increased balance representing the voting of the country. This requires all elected candidates and party nominated list form the parliament. They elect a representative cabinet replicating the balance in the nation.
The cabinet would have the proportion as after any but not in party blocs. Instead our vote would represent us all appropriately. Select committees would operate with legislation in the elected proportions. Cabinet as in a “War Cabinet” work for the national interest first and foremost arguing their point of view until a vote is called.
Why not? Infrastructure, health and education etc. would change legislation over time but not flip flop or take wild shifts.
Again “Why not?”
While we are at it Maori votes could elect a separate body with powers for proposing and vetting similar to the select committees with specific degrees of powers to influence as a First Nation and indigenous people has a responsibility bolstered by our founding treaty.
One thing the voters of AotearoaNZ must never forget. Luxon and his mentor Key are both great fans of the orange man in his big White House. Reading the Korero this morning exposes, for me at least, a very Trumpian influence insinuating itself into our democratic values.
Making it harder for the “bottom feeders” to vote by shortening the time to enrol, changing the boundaries of some of the electoral districts to improve National’s chances of winning an extra seat, Winston Peters’ proposal for only NZ citizens the right to vote, are just some examples of what we’re facing today.
I suggest that all Kiwis, citizens or not, be very aware and very wary of what’s happening. Luxon says he “gets” America and admires its political system. Maybe he should just go there and leave the intelligent people of our country, of whom there are many, to get on with our lives in our own way, in our own slice of Pacific paradise, without the fear of being absorbed into the same sort of political catastrophe we see in the USA. Something to consider is that “just because it’s American, it doesn’t make it right or great”, we have enough “great” already.
I completely agree, Luxon clearly doesn’t understand Aotearoa or relate to most of us. He is a fan of the USA and should go back there, preferably with his tail between his legs.
I remember when he became PM he said something about getting to know him. How do you get to know someone who spends half his time out of the country and the other half refusing to answer questions? I think we know enough now. Surely there’s a deodorant manufacturer in Texas who needs a door-to-door salesman?
Yep,however. I’ve learnt enough about him thank you, don’t. Don’t need any more info
That’s good because I don’t have any, nor do I want any, perhaps except for his flight number out of here. Maybe he could borrow a plane from NZDF?
1. Don’t think we have any to spare, 2. Think of the poor flight crew
The flight crew could possibly bail out once they get going. Someone who used to run an airline should know how to fly. Don’t forget the man that gets things done!! Except when he doesn’t….
Well said Jeremy.
Thanks Leonie 🙂. Luxon and Co haven’t had an original idea for the last two years. There’s nothing we’re hearing now that suggests any changes. They’re running scared, perhaps trying a new angle to disrupt the system in their favour. I hope they just keep on running, anywhere but here!!
Luxon...a numpty or a yahoo ?
Personally, a yahoo , as in' Chris, you are hopeless, hairless, old and over rated'.
YAHOO !
Like all less than effective trades professionals, blaming your tools for a poor job just doesn't cut it. It's not like MMP is a new system at play here. As Natalia Albert has pointed out, we never fully transitioned to MMP from FPP. The idea of letting a king maker establish a Government can be negated by presenting a coalition complete with an agreed policy platform. That way voters know what they're getting up front.
Id also add that if we strengthened the rold of Parliament as recommended by Sir Geoffrey Palmer et Al, we'd have a much more robust system operating.
I have no sympathy for our Prime Minister at all. He is the numpty, and due to his complete lack of EQ and years of corporate programming, is completely out of his depth! The damage he has done to Aotearoa since taking office is immeasurable!
There is no I in Team.. apparently luxon hasn't heard that one
If he ever said that to me I would answer,” no, you’re right, but there’s a U in fuckwit”
🤣
The Coalition Agreements are the new democracy in this country which excludes what the voting public actually want and voted for. Just as last election, probably a majority of promises currently being made will never come to fruition if elected.
The other nonsense I heard today is the Taxpayers Union-Curia Poll results. These don't seem credible given the performance of particularly National and the Prime Minister recently. We seem to have a lame duck Prime Minister who seems paralysed (probably by the Coalition Agreements), and either will not or cannot discipline the likes of Winston Peters in case it crashes the coalition. Although preferable to FPP, I am sure this is not the version of MMP envisaged by its architects or voters.
However, I take consolation in the fact that the only poll that counts is that on 7th November.
I'm sorry, but I must point out here that the wasteful damage this Coalition has managed to do in one term is exactly what those who were against MMP in the first place predicted could happen...political and therefore social chaos, due to vested and ideological interests of characters that are not in the end truly accountable politically....and David Smirk-Seymour is the classic example of what they were afraid of.
Agree completely with you Kim, particularly the chaos Atlas Network Seymour etc has created. The more difficult question now however, is how to solve this situation and rectify the harm that has been done in such a short time to this once great country of ours.
I expect Christopher’s sponsors will be pleased but his ministers (numptys and yahoos?) will have to face questions while he slips away to the Pacific Island Forum.
What a statesman he is!
I hope that was sarcasm?
It's Sian not Siam but I'll let you away with it, since it did get bandied about as a variation on my name in primary school.
This whole compete to get power kind of government is causing nothing but division.
The only competition should be which candidate for any electorate and which party for party votes best represents the most voters on election day.
Once they are elected, they should all just get on with governing the country, voting as per their voter mandate, compromising as needed to get decisions made, like one big committee. That's the ideal. Why is it so flipping difficult to achieve?
Oops, sorry about that.
That is just my point Sian...it is obviously more difficult to achieve under MMP than FPP...we now have the classic example to deal with, don't we?
I disagree. It should be more achievable with MMP. We are stuck still with a FPP mindset, and until we lose that, we'll keep getting this win at all costs attitude. Along with all the bribes and oft-undelivered promises of the election year grift.
I think MMP is the best available system. Always have done. I wonder if we would have the government we have now if the recommendations in 2012 been put in place. All this government has done has enforce my resistance to anything longer than a 3 year term until politics evolves enough that there is genuine collaboration for the good governance of all.
Should be, yes BUT very clearly isn't, as WE HAVE NOW SEEN....ideology is a an extremely poor substitute for a practical scientific relationship with reality...unless of course you are insane enough to be unable to allow yourself see/discern the true situation....yes???
No. You will not convince me by insulting my intelligence, Kim.
All we have seen is a particular permutation. And an argument against anything longer than a 3 year term. MMP is still the best method, in my opinion, to provide an inclusive government.
Sorry Sian, it wasn't directed at you in particular, the you was a general you and therefore should have been 'one'....there are many countries world-wide using the MMP system, but I note that they are all much larger than NZ....but Ireland, which is also small, uses STV.....my question is this....maybe MMP is less suitable for small countries....
Nick, that figure for how many voted to change mmp included those who would have preferred the single transferable voting system - so that figure isn't just the ones wanting FFP back.
I'd like to have the STV system - our local council uses it and it seems to work well.
HEAR, HEAR!
Not withstanding everything you’ve pointed out in this post Nick, I would vote for the reintroduction of first past the post in a heartbeat if it meant ridding the country of Winston Peters and Shane Jones. Now if single transferable voting STV were an option I would vote for this. Why? Well STV immediately gets rid of list members of parliament, an anathema to democracy and public accountability. With MMP we’ve been saddled with all kinds of blowhards who have no electorate to endorse them. Under STV the scenarios you drew to our attention would be avoided since no individual member could be elected without first accruing at least 50% of votes cast via the preferential selection process. We already have a defacto system in operation by thinking voters. I would be a two tick GREEN voter in November, but will vote for a Labour candidate because a GREEN candidate stands no realistic chance and to vote for a GREEN candidate would be to open the door for a BLUE to sneak in via a split GREEN, RED vote. If 40 years have taught us nothing else it is that the tail needs docking!!! To never more be allowed to wag the dog!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Mike, you've pointed out exactly what I have been trying say heretofore....
Ps. Fiona McDonald is S.P.U.N.K. !!!!!?
Perhaps I was naive when I voted for MMP???
I certainly didn’t factor in the current mentality of NZ First and ACT.
Nor did I expect someone like Donald Trump to become President of the USA.
The world is going insane…
PS. Great song choice Nick. Love, love, love, the Headless Chickens 😊
No not naive. It is just the politicians have managed yet again to game the system by forming coalitions which are rigidly sticking to stuff they (not us) agree for each party to do. That is first past the post behaviour when they claim they have a mandate, but only one more than half the seats and the minor parties in the coalition get too much say.
Which is exactly what was predicted by anti-MMP commenters back in the days of FFP....I think STV might be the best "middle way"...
Yes, our local council uses STV and it works well - you don't hear people complaining about the results.
Suppose we anticipate a continued rise in TOP support. We could have 15 Green, 12 Opportunity and 3 Te Pati Maori say. They with the Wibbly Wobbly timid Labour Party would form a government that has preference for Fair and equitable taxation for Papatuanuku to benefit all citizens and give good healthcare, education, preparation for life working, housing, and volunteering contributors all. All ages and conditions of people covered. Strong flexible public transport. ACC incorporated in the broad ample health care. Wealth of the nation would be first Papatuanuku’s to gift. So equitable tax system with no get outs is the governments first responsibility.
The surge of TOP could be the call for cooperation and collaboration.
MMP was chosen by New Zealand to make the composition of our government representative of all governance views. Logically achieving this while avoiding minuscule parties wagging the dog - and getting more than their justified influence.
Logically an extension of MMP to achieve an increased balance representing the voting of the country. This requires all elected candidates and party nominated list form the parliament. They elect a representative cabinet replicating the balance in the nation.
The cabinet would have the proportion as after any but not in party blocs. Instead our vote would represent us all appropriately. Select committees would operate with legislation in the elected proportions. Cabinet as in a “War Cabinet” work for the national interest first and foremost arguing their point of view until a vote is called.
Why not? Infrastructure, health and education etc. would change legislation over time but not flip flop or take wild shifts.
Again “Why not?”
While we are at it Maori votes could elect a separate body with powers for proposing and vetting similar to the select committees with specific degrees of powers to influence as a First Nation and indigenous people has a responsibility bolstered by our founding treaty.
Don