The full list of false claims from last night's debate, as reported by One News. Note I haven't removed the Hipkins ones, they were all from Luxon.
• No fruit and veg GST savings will be passed on to customers (Luxon) - Grocery Commissioner will monitor pricing to prevent this.
• Labour didn’t implement the Circuit Breaker initiative (Luxon) - Has been rolled out and is being extended.
• National supports school lunches for all (Luxon) - They support the current policy (targeted lunches) pending a review of costs.
• National invented “By Māori, for Māori” (Luxon) - Used in matauranga Māori by Māori thinkers and leaders such as Mason Durie decades before.
• Every single health outcome has gone backwards under Labour (Luxon) - Most health outcomes (eg general mortality, cancer deaths, maternal health) have remained the same or improved.
This one also qualified as "Mostly Untrue", what a great phrase:
• Foreign home buyers tax would bring in $750 million (Luxon) - in reality, it is estimated to be about $210 million.
Great summary Nick! I thought it was quite a snooze fest and, like you, Chris Luxon got away with far too much. I did think it was very telling when he said the word 'organisation' rather than 'country' - confirmation his Govt will be focused on the dollars rather than the people, not that we needed that confirmation I guess.
I found it boring, mainly because of JMM. Was interesting to me the audience which Newsroom says : "Inside, security was waving a metal detecting wand over every audience member even though most were TVNZ employees or well-known political journalists. The studio floor manager gave a warning, albeit pleasantly, that if anyone attempted more than a polite laugh TVNZ would go to a commercial break and the offender would be ejected.
And that was part of the problem. The carefully scrutinised audience brought zero energy to the debate. The only laugh came when Luxon was asked about what he personally was doing in the fight against climate change and answered that his family had embraced recycling."
I'm very grateful to you for providing this summary. I watched and tried to listen carefully but every time Luxon talked loudly over Chippie, I was distracted by my flashbacks to bullying all male colleagues at board meetings. I have an almost autistic reaction to the chaos of people talking over each other, and loose sight of the points discussed.
So sitting back I focused on expressions and body language. Chippie mostly looked squarely into the camera, to the people. I read honesty. He played by standard debating rules.
Luxon kept turning to Chippie. He was making it personal (Trump shadowing Clinton?). It may be an accident of birth, but in Luxon's expressions I read a lot more passive aggression, defensiveness, smiles akin to smirks.
The arguments may have ended in a try, as the after-match analysis declared, but for anyone with an ounce of intuition, Chippie was a clear winner.
Great read Nick - JMM and her ilk are appalling - the cult of personality journalism + blatant RW bias + gross overestimation of the worth of her own opinion. Even advertisers seeing though it finally, but still pissed off that we have had so much of this self-important crap in a publicly funded broadcaster, grr.
On point as usual Nick. I have always thought that JMM is glaringly biased and has an inflated opinion of herself. You will have noticed when she introduces a news item from Maiki Sherman that she emphasizes the word "Deputy" so that we know JMM is better than the rest and Maiki is some sort of inferior lackey.
I was looking forward to reading this as I didn’t have the energy to watch it myself :)
“bumper stickers and headlines” are pretty much all Luxon seems to have. Chippy needs to speak up more, talk about what Labour has done, be more bold and not try to please everyone.
That was not an event. Jessica put statements to the two Chris's and then they got to comment, mostly uninterrupted in Luxon's case and mostly not for Chippy. JMM was totally out of her depth. The Taiwanese question was so off piste it was laughable. And as for the quick fire - forgettaboutit. If it's not a debate then the facilitator should be calling both contenders to account. Such a lost opportunity. 😞
Nice critique Nick. Yes there were a lot of quite pointless questions from the excited "moronorater" who was focused on getting through the list of questions rather than engaging in any more meaningful debate. Not riveting or inspiring particularly for undecided voters - although at least Chippy came across as 'honest and real' and had facts to back his comments while typically Luxy trotted out the same old slogans.
Jessica was terrible. She doesn't know what moderating means. You are quite right (and funny) about her behaviour towards Luxon. I had to stop watching because of extreme nausea after she said that she liked Luxon's energy. Yuck.
thank you Nick for this summary of the debate. i am grateful that you as someone whose opinion i trust is out there figuring out what it all means. i couldnt bring myself to watch it.
i did watch the Maori TV Te TaiHauauru electorate debate. i want to say that JMM needs to be introdued to the moderator, Tina Wickliffe. Maybe it was different because it was three wahine politicians but good job Tina. The National candidate obviously had the same speaking points coach as Chris Luxon. disgusting. but she got challenged more than chris ever does. despite the commentators and some questions i wouldnt have asked it was a good watch. Of course Whaea Deb won.
I watched Marae with Scotty Morrison on Sunday and was very, very, impressed by the interesting discussion between the candidates. It was topnotch. Worth having a look.
A commentator from RNZ saw Luxon's constant interruptions and overtalking as a win(???.!!!). And also said that Hipkins' answers were longwinded vs Luxon's short and snappy. (Whereas I saw an intelligent thoughtful approach vs bumper stickers and bullet points).
Sadly, yet again Luxon was not challenged on his lies. Perhaps accusing him of lying is a bit too hard and confrontational for most commentators and certainly ( the RW ) JMM was not going to do this. Remember her running after the cross the road limo ride chasing Luxon - the adoration last night was almost palpable.
Chippy I thought largely failed ( he needs to come out swinging next time or he's even more lost that he is looking now ) on this when Luxon starts going on about how our economy is in such a bad shape yet the facts that we have one of the lowest debt to GDP ratios, low unemployment, AA++ ( or thereabouts ) ratings from S&P, Fitch and Moodys, that largely the whole world is suffering high interest rates and inflation not just NZ as Luxon outright lies about. This is more than just dis/ misinformation and he has repeated history in putting this country and its people down. How low can you go before the media start to pull you up. Jack Tame recently an outlier on this.
Then we have too many NZ'ers who are caught in the I hate Jacinda/ Covid denial syndrome. The fact that we had and still have one of the lowest covid death rates ought be of utmost significance especially in regard to government spending - dollars spent keeping Kiwis and businesses going vs lives lost. Sadly nowadays this argument seems unable to be tabled as kiwis have been fed another narrative that we failed.
And there is the gang coalition BS - oh me oh my oh - again no challenge from JMM.
I fear that these debates will not get better as the quality of mediator certainly seems dire.
Where is John Campbell when you need him - It won't be getting easier for Chippy, he's got nothing to lose now as he's has all but lost.
I agree where is John Campbell?! I think actually it will get easier for Chippy, as he's a quick learner (i.e. covid minister) and he's got lots to gain, and he'll likely become stronger and more passionate. He will (should) learn from his mistakes here and with a better moderator do better (more interesting) next time. I find Luxon with all his blather (he goes on and on and on OMG) so boring.
Nice summary, Nick. I found it bloody depressing: the irresolute left v the irresolute right, and as a consequence, a complete absence of vision. I agree with Madeleine Chapman from the Spinoff, who declared David Cunliffe the winner. The key moment was the discussion of tax policies, which both Hipkins and Luxon seemed desperate to avoid. That's because the more they talk up their own stupid solutions, the more the need for a wealth/assets tax is thrown into sharp relief.
The full list of false claims from last night's debate, as reported by One News. Note I haven't removed the Hipkins ones, they were all from Luxon.
• No fruit and veg GST savings will be passed on to customers (Luxon) - Grocery Commissioner will monitor pricing to prevent this.
• Labour didn’t implement the Circuit Breaker initiative (Luxon) - Has been rolled out and is being extended.
• National supports school lunches for all (Luxon) - They support the current policy (targeted lunches) pending a review of costs.
• National invented “By Māori, for Māori” (Luxon) - Used in matauranga Māori by Māori thinkers and leaders such as Mason Durie decades before.
• Every single health outcome has gone backwards under Labour (Luxon) - Most health outcomes (eg general mortality, cancer deaths, maternal health) have remained the same or improved.
This one also qualified as "Mostly Untrue", what a great phrase:
• Foreign home buyers tax would bring in $750 million (Luxon) - in reality, it is estimated to be about $210 million.
Thank you for this summary. It needs to be posted widely.
Great summary Nick! I thought it was quite a snooze fest and, like you, Chris Luxon got away with far too much. I did think it was very telling when he said the word 'organisation' rather than 'country' - confirmation his Govt will be focused on the dollars rather than the people, not that we needed that confirmation I guess.
I found it boring, mainly because of JMM. Was interesting to me the audience which Newsroom says : "Inside, security was waving a metal detecting wand over every audience member even though most were TVNZ employees or well-known political journalists. The studio floor manager gave a warning, albeit pleasantly, that if anyone attempted more than a polite laugh TVNZ would go to a commercial break and the offender would be ejected.
And that was part of the problem. The carefully scrutinised audience brought zero energy to the debate. The only laugh came when Luxon was asked about what he personally was doing in the fight against climate change and answered that his family had embraced recycling."
I'm very grateful to you for providing this summary. I watched and tried to listen carefully but every time Luxon talked loudly over Chippie, I was distracted by my flashbacks to bullying all male colleagues at board meetings. I have an almost autistic reaction to the chaos of people talking over each other, and loose sight of the points discussed.
So sitting back I focused on expressions and body language. Chippie mostly looked squarely into the camera, to the people. I read honesty. He played by standard debating rules.
Luxon kept turning to Chippie. He was making it personal (Trump shadowing Clinton?). It may be an accident of birth, but in Luxon's expressions I read a lot more passive aggression, defensiveness, smiles akin to smirks.
The arguments may have ended in a try, as the after-match analysis declared, but for anyone with an ounce of intuition, Chippie was a clear winner.
Thank you for your keen observations.
Great read Nick - JMM and her ilk are appalling - the cult of personality journalism + blatant RW bias + gross overestimation of the worth of her own opinion. Even advertisers seeing though it finally, but still pissed off that we have had so much of this self-important crap in a publicly funded broadcaster, grr.
a publicly funded broadcaster, grr. Yes!
On point as usual Nick. I have always thought that JMM is glaringly biased and has an inflated opinion of herself. You will have noticed when she introduces a news item from Maiki Sherman that she emphasizes the word "Deputy" so that we know JMM is better than the rest and Maiki is some sort of inferior lackey.
Yes, I have noticed that, it seems so petty and mean spirited.
I was looking forward to reading this as I didn’t have the energy to watch it myself :)
“bumper stickers and headlines” are pretty much all Luxon seems to have. Chippy needs to speak up more, talk about what Labour has done, be more bold and not try to please everyone.
Yes labour needs totally punchy common sense bullets! Now!
That was not an event. Jessica put statements to the two Chris's and then they got to comment, mostly uninterrupted in Luxon's case and mostly not for Chippy. JMM was totally out of her depth. The Taiwanese question was so off piste it was laughable. And as for the quick fire - forgettaboutit. If it's not a debate then the facilitator should be calling both contenders to account. Such a lost opportunity. 😞
Yes I agree - JMM did not have a clue and accompanied by her scowl and inability to fire up an interesting discussion/debate, a real failure.
yes, munch mckay was very much the wrong person as the moderator. hopefully tame will be up next.
Nice critique Nick. Yes there were a lot of quite pointless questions from the excited "moronorater" who was focused on getting through the list of questions rather than engaging in any more meaningful debate. Not riveting or inspiring particularly for undecided voters - although at least Chippy came across as 'honest and real' and had facts to back his comments while typically Luxy trotted out the same old slogans.
Jessica was terrible. She doesn't know what moderating means. You are quite right (and funny) about her behaviour towards Luxon. I had to stop watching because of extreme nausea after she said that she liked Luxon's energy. Yuck.
Me too when she gushed over Luxflakes energy. How gross
I agree. Yuck, alight. Yuckity, yuckity, yuck.
thank you Nick for this summary of the debate. i am grateful that you as someone whose opinion i trust is out there figuring out what it all means. i couldnt bring myself to watch it.
i did watch the Maori TV Te TaiHauauru electorate debate. i want to say that JMM needs to be introdued to the moderator, Tina Wickliffe. Maybe it was different because it was three wahine politicians but good job Tina. The National candidate obviously had the same speaking points coach as Chris Luxon. disgusting. but she got challenged more than chris ever does. despite the commentators and some questions i wouldnt have asked it was a good watch. Of course Whaea Deb won.
Māori TV do a great job, I'm constantly impressed by their work. TVNZ could certainly learn a thing or two.
I watched Marae with Scotty Morrison on Sunday and was very, very, impressed by the interesting discussion between the candidates. It was topnotch. Worth having a look.
I'm hoping 'moderator' bias will perversely expose luxon's inability to explain the 'how' of his Party's empty promises.
And in contrast, Hipkin's is articulate and honest and has the focus on doable Labour Party policy.
Enjoyed your fair and thorough take on this debate, thank you for a good job as usual Nick!
A commentator from RNZ saw Luxon's constant interruptions and overtalking as a win(???.!!!). And also said that Hipkins' answers were longwinded vs Luxon's short and snappy. (Whereas I saw an intelligent thoughtful approach vs bumper stickers and bullet points).
yes I agree.
Good points Julie!
Sadly, yet again Luxon was not challenged on his lies. Perhaps accusing him of lying is a bit too hard and confrontational for most commentators and certainly ( the RW ) JMM was not going to do this. Remember her running after the cross the road limo ride chasing Luxon - the adoration last night was almost palpable.
Chippy I thought largely failed ( he needs to come out swinging next time or he's even more lost that he is looking now ) on this when Luxon starts going on about how our economy is in such a bad shape yet the facts that we have one of the lowest debt to GDP ratios, low unemployment, AA++ ( or thereabouts ) ratings from S&P, Fitch and Moodys, that largely the whole world is suffering high interest rates and inflation not just NZ as Luxon outright lies about. This is more than just dis/ misinformation and he has repeated history in putting this country and its people down. How low can you go before the media start to pull you up. Jack Tame recently an outlier on this.
Then we have too many NZ'ers who are caught in the I hate Jacinda/ Covid denial syndrome. The fact that we had and still have one of the lowest covid death rates ought be of utmost significance especially in regard to government spending - dollars spent keeping Kiwis and businesses going vs lives lost. Sadly nowadays this argument seems unable to be tabled as kiwis have been fed another narrative that we failed.
And there is the gang coalition BS - oh me oh my oh - again no challenge from JMM.
I fear that these debates will not get better as the quality of mediator certainly seems dire.
Where is John Campbell when you need him - It won't be getting easier for Chippy, he's got nothing to lose now as he's has all but lost.
I agree where is John Campbell?! I think actually it will get easier for Chippy, as he's a quick learner (i.e. covid minister) and he's got lots to gain, and he'll likely become stronger and more passionate. He will (should) learn from his mistakes here and with a better moderator do better (more interesting) next time. I find Luxon with all his blather (he goes on and on and on OMG) so boring.
Yip. John Campbell would be good. And kind!
Nice summary, Nick. I found it bloody depressing: the irresolute left v the irresolute right, and as a consequence, a complete absence of vision. I agree with Madeleine Chapman from the Spinoff, who declared David Cunliffe the winner. The key moment was the discussion of tax policies, which both Hipkins and Luxon seemed desperate to avoid. That's because the more they talk up their own stupid solutions, the more the need for a wealth/assets tax is thrown into sharp relief.
What surprised me was how Tau Henare was actually reasonably articulate - what a surprise.