Over 50 years ago, I was teaching in an overcrowded, underfunded, tough school in North London with a very high number of children from deprived and broken homes. There were real issues with classroom problems. Our wonderful principal, one of the most influential I have ever worked with, dealt with it this way: if a child became overwrought, you would send that child to him. Depending on the age and circumstances, he would make them a cup of cocoa, sit them down and read a story - or, if older, take them for a walk and a talk. Being sent to that principal was a blessing for both teacher and child.
I suspect this post will bring up some old memories, like this issue has for you. I was strapped when I was 8. The teacher got annoyed because me and my friend were drawing on each other's pictures. He said "so it was you who ripped the books?" And out into the corridor I went ; he lining up the strap at the other end of the corridor so he could get a good run in. His name was Mr Cliff and this was at Terrace End Primary School in Palmy. My parents came in, all concerned faces. I remember sobbing to them : "I never ripped the books". To this day I don't know what he was talking about. But that sense of injustice ran deep. Mr Cliff may well have shaped my revolutionary soul forever! My parents never hit us. We were Dr Spock children, so when the "anti smacking bill" came up in Parliament, I was gobsmacked by the outrage of those who think it is ok to hit a child. Sue Bradford, Lynne Pillay and Helen Clark did great work to get this through. I'm with the teachers on this one, who don't want to be enforcers like P Henry is proposing. They have never asked for it.
So right that we remember and carry those injustices Darien . I got whacked on the hand in front of the whole class on what felt like my first day at school. Certainly I was a new entrant. We got sent en masse to the toilet block in class time and were told to be totally silent as we crossed the quad. But some kid told me the big wet patch around a leaking toilet was where the octopus came out and grabbed you! Going back to class I just wanted to know more! So that was the crime for which I was hurt and humiliated 😢
It stays with you allright. I got the strap on my first day, too. The doors on the school toilets didn't meet the concrete floor; there was a decent-sized gap. Like you, I was curious (I'd never seen a toilet door like this before) and so I bent down and looked underneath. One of the senior girls was in there and she was horrified, and told on me. I got the strap but I didn't really understand why. I just wanted to see what was there.
I wanted to add a sad emoji. Our experiences speak to how young children’s curiosity can get them into trouble they don’t understand but also don’t forget
As an eight-year-old and in a fit of enthusiasm for the task in hand, I accidently dropped my ruler on the floor. The teacher marched down the aisle to the back row where I had been placed and whacked me hard. I didn't like her much and I guess some little nark told her. Her name was Miss Venn, then she got married and became Mrs Stewart. Nothing improved. It was Owairaka Primary School in Mt Albert.
I guess this is the mindset Henry wants us to go back to.
It got worse. Boys were caned in high school. How Dickensian was that? Luckily by the time I got to high school it was detentions only. My brother Kit was a prefect and he used to joke with me : "you're in Detention".
Two little shits - talk about pot/kettle/black. The best thing about electioneering is that you don’t need facts or logic to make policy, only a good awareness of where the bottom of your supporters’ barrels lie. PS - watch your back Davey, Paul is after your job
Really Paul Henry, "little shits" - how insightful you are. Kind of like your disparaging comments about a certain woman from India. Perhaps consider the impact of the Coalition fiscal policies on our kids.
Tāutoko Nick! I couldn’t believe this yesterday and your wrap is so much more polite. Where do these people come from and why do they keep coming back?
It's a lot more polite than I was feeling, but I resisted the temptation to suggest that Seymour and Henry were the greatest arguments for their own policies, both needing a good whack, or perhaps 20 of them:
My school years in a nutshell! Roger Waters is a very astute song writer, perhaps with a similar level of “instruction” to mine.
I had a very “rounded” education from the four schools I attended, (for differing lengths of time). We just didn’t seem to get on together. I’m still trying to decide whether it was something I said, or did, maybe, that got me caned regularly and “sent down”, to put it politely. I’ve never believed that a title, in school or anywhere else, gives superiority or respect to the holder, but I may have respect for someone who is seen to be worthy. Respect has to be earned, whatever position the owner holds. Neither Seymour or Henry should ever earn any respect for their current take on discipline in schools, (or anything else for that matter)
I wrote some time ago in a Korero, a little ditty about Seymour’s attitude towards school students, but it now needs to be updated somewhat…
We, as educators, are trained on the use of restraint only as a last possible resort. We DO NOT want to go backwards. We are not interested in punitive justice for these struggling children. It doesn't work. Those children who are disruptive are usually dealing with a whole storm of challenges. All behaviour is communication, and these kiddos are often disregulated for a raft of reasons. We need more support in classes to give these kids a chance at success, not manhandling them! It beggars belief!
I doubt that either Henry or Seymour actually believe hitting children is something to be encouraged, but of course their key voters do and the real crime is the media giving it undue prominence. It's almost as if the media supports the policy.
We certainly don’t need Paul Henry wading into education and dictating what sort of discipline teachers should be exercising in the classroom, quite enough damage is being done by Stanford and Seymour who seem hellbent on taking us back to the era of sausage machine education depicted so eloquently in the Pink Floyd video and the song.
Teachers, children, and parents, need more support, smaller classes, safe environments and a lot less interference from politicians who have no experience in education or teaching.
Having been a teacher for almost 45 years I recognise a little shit when I see one and I would love to talk to Paul Henry and Seymour's old teachers because I am 100% sure they would both have fit that bill. Imagine dragging a student out of your class and the reaction of the remaining, unsupervised, students and what would happen back in the class. Smaller class sizes and more teacher aides to help students rather than punish them would be far more helpful. As for fining parents who don't engage! Really!
And putting them in a 'supervised space'. Who does the supervision? An over-worked, time-poor principal while they struggle to keep up with emails and field phone calls? Some poor teacher during their precious release time, as they try to keep abreast of the endless admin teachers have to cope with? Really?
Take the money back from tobacco companies, stop favouring landlords, and put money into teacher aides and learning assistants who can work alongside teachers.
Have been in and around education even longer and the take away from this crazy Paul Henry brain explosion (for want of a more refined word ) is that the parents of some of these difficult children vote ACT,NZF and NAT. and would be into the school post haste if their child was dealt to as suggested - so it obviously only applies to brown kids and those in less than ideal financial situations. Truly the policies of these creeps makes me wonder how they get over 5% of the vote.
Absolutely. That comment from Henry “There are parents that presumably just don't give a damn, so they're the ones that will be fined. The parents that do give a damn but don't know what to do and need help, we'll engage with them, and we'll help them - we will not fine them.”
They're all going a bit mad with the crazy policies they're making up, aren't they? Have a few kids for $5k a year, from winnie, what's next?? Gawd, I hope we can vote these nutters out at the election!
I'd like to see the 'little shits' dealt to and as soon as possible. We have enough sizable 'shits' in parliament and these two, Seymour and his vile new friend and fellow sizable shit Henry shouldn't be allowed anywhere near places where important decisions are made. They are vile and despicable examples of 'shits' who should never ever hold any form of public office.
If you actually drill into what ACT are announcing, it's all just underfunded existing law. Voters don't realise we already have plenty of regulation for dealing with criminals, misbehaving children, medicine buying, energy security, and so on, if we simply funded them properly. The trouble is ACT can't sell themselves to ordinary people with their *actual* ambition (that is, Wilhoit's Law: "in-groups who the law protects but doesn't bind, and the majority who the law binds but doesn't protect") so, instead, they're dredging out existing regulation and re-wrapping it in Paul Henry's crass PR pink-razzamatazz...But of course, they're also not offering new funding for any of it, so it's just an empty shell to be filled by the status quo. Teachers simply need more qualified aides in classrooms to deal with "little shits"; our health system simply needs more overall funding to increase medicine availability; unemployed people simply need better foundations to give them the confidence to seek out work. ACT's manifesto might best be described as "more of the same...but with sparkles!".
👍💯👏 I agree with all of the comments but the issue you identify across all the unhinged "crass PR pink-razzamatazz " coming out of ALL the coalition parties right now is UNDERFUNDING 💥💥💥 in this instance in particular 🤷
Over 50 years ago, I was teaching in an overcrowded, underfunded, tough school in North London with a very high number of children from deprived and broken homes. There were real issues with classroom problems. Our wonderful principal, one of the most influential I have ever worked with, dealt with it this way: if a child became overwrought, you would send that child to him. Depending on the age and circumstances, he would make them a cup of cocoa, sit them down and read a story - or, if older, take them for a walk and a talk. Being sent to that principal was a blessing for both teacher and child.
Brilliant!
Like that movie, 'Blackboard Jungle' for those of you old enough to have seen it. Understand then treat the problem, not punish it.
sounds perfect as most of the children just want someone to talk too.
I suspect this post will bring up some old memories, like this issue has for you. I was strapped when I was 8. The teacher got annoyed because me and my friend were drawing on each other's pictures. He said "so it was you who ripped the books?" And out into the corridor I went ; he lining up the strap at the other end of the corridor so he could get a good run in. His name was Mr Cliff and this was at Terrace End Primary School in Palmy. My parents came in, all concerned faces. I remember sobbing to them : "I never ripped the books". To this day I don't know what he was talking about. But that sense of injustice ran deep. Mr Cliff may well have shaped my revolutionary soul forever! My parents never hit us. We were Dr Spock children, so when the "anti smacking bill" came up in Parliament, I was gobsmacked by the outrage of those who think it is ok to hit a child. Sue Bradford, Lynne Pillay and Helen Clark did great work to get this through. I'm with the teachers on this one, who don't want to be enforcers like P Henry is proposing. They have never asked for it.
So right that we remember and carry those injustices Darien . I got whacked on the hand in front of the whole class on what felt like my first day at school. Certainly I was a new entrant. We got sent en masse to the toilet block in class time and were told to be totally silent as we crossed the quad. But some kid told me the big wet patch around a leaking toilet was where the octopus came out and grabbed you! Going back to class I just wanted to know more! So that was the crime for which I was hurt and humiliated 😢
It stays with you allright. I got the strap on my first day, too. The doors on the school toilets didn't meet the concrete floor; there was a decent-sized gap. Like you, I was curious (I'd never seen a toilet door like this before) and so I bent down and looked underneath. One of the senior girls was in there and she was horrified, and told on me. I got the strap but I didn't really understand why. I just wanted to see what was there.
I wanted to add a sad emoji. Our experiences speak to how young children’s curiosity can get them into trouble they don’t understand but also don’t forget
Is this how curiosity gets killed??
As an eight-year-old and in a fit of enthusiasm for the task in hand, I accidently dropped my ruler on the floor. The teacher marched down the aisle to the back row where I had been placed and whacked me hard. I didn't like her much and I guess some little nark told her. Her name was Miss Venn, then she got married and became Mrs Stewart. Nothing improved. It was Owairaka Primary School in Mt Albert.
I guess this is the mindset Henry wants us to go back to.
It got worse. Boys were caned in high school. How Dickensian was that? Luckily by the time I got to high school it was detentions only. My brother Kit was a prefect and he used to joke with me : "you're in Detention".
Darien, I have a brother called Kit too :).
You know that corporal punishment in schools was only finally stopped in 1990 by law eh.
People still blame Jacinda for stopping parents hitting their children !
It was Helen Clark's government. Sue Bradford's bill. Helen did a deal with John Key to get it across the line.
Thank you, not sure why they blame Jacinda, but then she gets blamed for things she hasn't done.
More support better school lunches and less poverty would be better. Also since when does a candidate not a politician present policy? I’m confused!
Hey - that's woke! ACT will never agree to that...
Two little shits - talk about pot/kettle/black. The best thing about electioneering is that you don’t need facts or logic to make policy, only a good awareness of where the bottom of your supporters’ barrels lie. PS - watch your back Davey, Paul is after your job
I like the term ‘bumper sticker politics’. That sums it up well.
As a teacher for over 45 years, I’m gobsmacked at the simplistic rhetoric. Sickening.
Really Paul Henry, "little shits" - how insightful you are. Kind of like your disparaging comments about a certain woman from India. Perhaps consider the impact of the Coalition fiscal policies on our kids.
Tāutoko Nick! I couldn’t believe this yesterday and your wrap is so much more polite. Where do these people come from and why do they keep coming back?
It's a lot more polite than I was feeling, but I resisted the temptation to suggest that Seymour and Henry were the greatest arguments for their own policies, both needing a good whack, or perhaps 20 of them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntto8XJ4ELg
That was more along the lines I was thinking 🤔 And I absolutely hate violence but pillocks like that …….
My school years in a nutshell! Roger Waters is a very astute song writer, perhaps with a similar level of “instruction” to mine.
I had a very “rounded” education from the four schools I attended, (for differing lengths of time). We just didn’t seem to get on together. I’m still trying to decide whether it was something I said, or did, maybe, that got me caned regularly and “sent down”, to put it politely. I’ve never believed that a title, in school or anywhere else, gives superiority or respect to the holder, but I may have respect for someone who is seen to be worthy. Respect has to be earned, whatever position the owner holds. Neither Seymour or Henry should ever earn any respect for their current take on discipline in schools, (or anything else for that matter)
I wrote some time ago in a Korero, a little ditty about Seymour’s attitude towards school students, but it now needs to be updated somewhat…
We don’t need no David Seymour
We need Henry even less,
Two shits together will only make it
Just another stinking ACT mess
We, as educators, are trained on the use of restraint only as a last possible resort. We DO NOT want to go backwards. We are not interested in punitive justice for these struggling children. It doesn't work. Those children who are disruptive are usually dealing with a whole storm of challenges. All behaviour is communication, and these kiddos are often disregulated for a raft of reasons. We need more support in classes to give these kids a chance at success, not manhandling them! It beggars belief!
Thanks again Nick for speaking so eloquently on this subject.
I recall getting the strap for spelling mistakes, that sure helped my literacy.
That AWFUL smug P. Henry is the poster child of ACT.
As you point out what can he or Seymour ( 0r Stanford for that matter) know about pedagogy.
I doubt that either Henry or Seymour actually believe hitting children is something to be encouraged, but of course their key voters do and the real crime is the media giving it undue prominence. It's almost as if the media supports the policy.
We certainly don’t need Paul Henry wading into education and dictating what sort of discipline teachers should be exercising in the classroom, quite enough damage is being done by Stanford and Seymour who seem hellbent on taking us back to the era of sausage machine education depicted so eloquently in the Pink Floyd video and the song.
Teachers, children, and parents, need more support, smaller classes, safe environments and a lot less interference from politicians who have no experience in education or teaching.
Having been a teacher for almost 45 years I recognise a little shit when I see one and I would love to talk to Paul Henry and Seymour's old teachers because I am 100% sure they would both have fit that bill. Imagine dragging a student out of your class and the reaction of the remaining, unsupervised, students and what would happen back in the class. Smaller class sizes and more teacher aides to help students rather than punish them would be far more helpful. As for fining parents who don't engage! Really!
And putting them in a 'supervised space'. Who does the supervision? An over-worked, time-poor principal while they struggle to keep up with emails and field phone calls? Some poor teacher during their precious release time, as they try to keep abreast of the endless admin teachers have to cope with? Really?
Take the money back from tobacco companies, stop favouring landlords, and put money into teacher aides and learning assistants who can work alongside teachers.
Have been in and around education even longer and the take away from this crazy Paul Henry brain explosion (for want of a more refined word ) is that the parents of some of these difficult children vote ACT,NZF and NAT. and would be into the school post haste if their child was dealt to as suggested - so it obviously only applies to brown kids and those in less than ideal financial situations. Truly the policies of these creeps makes me wonder how they get over 5% of the vote.
Absolutely. That comment from Henry “There are parents that presumably just don't give a damn, so they're the ones that will be fined. The parents that do give a damn but don't know what to do and need help, we'll engage with them, and we'll help them - we will not fine them.”
(shudder)
Who judges whether enough damns are given?
They're all going a bit mad with the crazy policies they're making up, aren't they? Have a few kids for $5k a year, from winnie, what's next?? Gawd, I hope we can vote these nutters out at the election!
I'd like to see the 'little shits' dealt to and as soon as possible. We have enough sizable 'shits' in parliament and these two, Seymour and his vile new friend and fellow sizable shit Henry shouldn't be allowed anywhere near places where important decisions are made. They are vile and despicable examples of 'shits' who should never ever hold any form of public office.
If you actually drill into what ACT are announcing, it's all just underfunded existing law. Voters don't realise we already have plenty of regulation for dealing with criminals, misbehaving children, medicine buying, energy security, and so on, if we simply funded them properly. The trouble is ACT can't sell themselves to ordinary people with their *actual* ambition (that is, Wilhoit's Law: "in-groups who the law protects but doesn't bind, and the majority who the law binds but doesn't protect") so, instead, they're dredging out existing regulation and re-wrapping it in Paul Henry's crass PR pink-razzamatazz...But of course, they're also not offering new funding for any of it, so it's just an empty shell to be filled by the status quo. Teachers simply need more qualified aides in classrooms to deal with "little shits"; our health system simply needs more overall funding to increase medicine availability; unemployed people simply need better foundations to give them the confidence to seek out work. ACT's manifesto might best be described as "more of the same...but with sparkles!".
👍💯👏 I agree with all of the comments but the issue you identify across all the unhinged "crass PR pink-razzamatazz " coming out of ALL the coalition parties right now is UNDERFUNDING 💥💥💥 in this instance in particular 🤷