Thank you Nick. I am somewhat dubious around debates, not for any reason in particular, but someone like Seymour ala Trump just rely on click bait and tired tropes and well basically lie in the face of overwhelming evidence. Today it feels like the norm, to just blatantly lie and say it often and long enough that many just switch off to the real issues at hand. The summary as you described was quite telling. Seymour's lack of passion probably underlines his lack of any credible philosophical, emotive convictions, beyond the dollar and being, well a clown with it. Helmut speaking of his daughters connection with Te Reo really resonated with me and was deeply moved by those words. As a Samoan with mokopuna who whakapapa to this land I feel strong emotionally knowing they have a better opportunity to engage and experience Te Reo Maori more openly today then may be their forebears of past years. People like Helmut help the fight to keep it that way. It's a lovely sunny morning here in Ahuriri.Nga Mihi Aroha koutou.
I had to laugh at your comment - ‘I thought to myself, “Really? How many of the things that happen in your day, your regular interactions, are primarily defined by race - I would suggest bugger all.” I automatically read/thought ‘humans’ instead of race as my view is he/ACT pretty much view us all(bottom feeders) as productive units rather than people, which more or less speaks to his view of the treaty just being something standing in the way of money and productivity for the people he deems worthy of being seen as ‘human’ by him and his.
It was a magnificent event and kudos to Bomber. I had never heard Helmut speak before and he was impressive. Seymour was really annoying in that he doesn't get the most basic about Te Tiriti in that it was an agreement between Maori and the Crown, not between two races as he likes to insist - perhaps that's deliberate. I agree with you about Bomber's closing talking about his daughter - it was very moving and I will think more kindly of him - at least until he goes off on another of his rants about identity politics or how we win the men back to the Left, because we think all men are rapists etc etc ! I do however follow him and occasionally comment on his blog. BHN did a review straight after with Matthew Tutaki on as a guest. That was great too. I am glad you got to go.
Thank you so much for this Nick as I didn’t get to watch the debate. The truth is of course that Helmet would always win against Seymour because he is able to present the truth around the Treaty. Seymour as you say is only in it for the politics and this is the politics as required of him, and as paid for, by the Atlas Network. Aotearoa deserves better than this charlatan. May our love of te reo continue to grow and flourish and may Te Tiriti be honoured as intended.
Why is he doing it? To get rid of possibly the strongest barrier to open slather exploitation of course. It's the reason Seymour is in parliament. Evil, dangerous man.
I just wish that someone would point out to Seymour that if it wasn't for the Treaty he would not have the right to be in Parliament in this country, so he should be a bit more careful about putting his job at risk by seeking to chuck it out. A bit simplistic I know but seriously, how the heck does he think he has the right to speak for two completely independent legal parties to an international contract of which the government is really only a byproduct.
Oops. I think it was from looking for songs and I looked for something from the band Helmet and it got stuck in my head. Updated now - alas not in the emails of course.
Thanks Nick, a great perspective on the debate, and so glad you were able to be there. I watched. I thought Helmut was by far and away the better speaker...he was informed, knowledgeable, steady, continued to make his points, and dignified. Seymour.....I think perhaps his 'robotic' persona is all about speaking to his crowd. He doesn't need to convince us...he knows we're already agin his Bill. It's for his supporters, and soon-to-be-supporters, who are ignorant of Aotearoa's history, have no concept of equity, and he can rekindle their fear of 'losing something' to Māori. Overwhelmingly most of the comments supported Helmut. But the racist ones revealed how far in the past they are, calling for an end to 'hand-outs' ....they are still in THAT space! So ripe and fertile for Seymour's rhetoric.
Damien Grant...first time I've heard him speak....errrr.....perhaps there needs to be a benchmark of understanding Te Tiriti, the breaches, the journeys by Māori to petition the British Crown on what was happening here, the endlessly peaceful avenues Māori have taken to address those breaches....I could go on.....that irked me the most...that Seymour and Grant could spout untruths and there will be a segment of the population out there who will believe them.
On a positive note, Bomber nailed it....the future is Māori and it's coming fast. Tangata Tiriti need to get on the waka with them! This is also another great opportunity to email our glorious leaders (:)) urging them to ditch the Principles Bill. Clearly the majority do not want it, it's bad for the country, and based on ACT (Atlas) lies.
It should be a very simple evaluation, after screwing and abusing Maori for 150 years, is it ok to say forget all that, lets just carry on with White Privilege. The world over people are all different, yet all the same underneath, surely the only reason Maori are adversely represented in the wrong statistics, is due to not having the same advantages that White folk had. Exactly what White privilege is!
Nick, when are you going to spend a day in the press gallery? Awesome you were there to report the vibe as well as the words- thanks. I'd love a psychologist to interview David, Damien and a selection of Act supporters to see if the incident of psychopathic tendencies was higher than the whole population average. I suspect the aforementioned gents are right up there. Your observation of David being emotionless and robotic speaks volumes. Damien now spends his days trading in people's business misery legitimately, while being the ultimate sea-lion as his media sideline.
It must be pointed out to Seymour that we do ALL have equal rights as New Zealanders AND in addition to equal rights as New Zealanders Maori have rights under te Tiriti. Secondly te Tiriti is between Maori and the Crown. It's interpretation has evolved over the years via the courts and study by academics. Who is Seymour to come along and say he knows better - how is he qualified to do so.
Agree 💯 . I remember when you could get a Maori loan for a house I've forgotten what the correct name for it was I think if you could prove you had a small amount of Maori blood in you you could get a house loan I remember having a go at someone about helping themselves to the loan but wouldn't vote on the Maori roll or consider themselves part Maori any other time it always felt wrong to me. I think so much has been done wrong in the past so we have a lot to make up for.
One thing we need to remember about Seymour and Te Tiriti. Te Tiriti underpins a lot of our property law. Undermine that and everything is for sale. Forests, fisheries, land, the seabed, the lot. And THAT is what Seymour wants, Aotearoa totally for sale!
Yes, my son and I watched the debate. Seymour's a very smooth operator, and his co-opting of the language of universal human rights is clever and dangerous (I teach human rights at university). But universal human rights and cultural rights are not diametrically opposed, as Seymour would have his followers believe; and he totally ignores equity and indeed dignity, which are core human rights values. And of course he incessantly talks about race, rather than a Treaty between two peoples. As to his ridiculous asserton that nowhere in the world does co-governance work: I can immediately point to Sámi parliaments in Finland, Norway, and Sweden. Helmut did well in pointing out that Māori rangatira did not cede sovereignty when signing Te Tiriti, and Te Whakaputanga before it, but perhaps could have challenged Seymour about his attempts to remove Te Tiriti from legislation. I thought Helmut was eloquent and passionate, And Seymour articulate and manipulative (a good introduction as Voldemort, by Bomber). And, follow the money ... why is Seymour promoting the Treaty Principles Bill? The current Treaty principles are a significant obstacle to both corporatisation and privatisation and present a clear threat to any plans of future sale of public assets to the private sector. Look at who donated huge sums to the Act Party for the last election - e.g., the Gibbs family and Graeme Hart, who made a lot of money in 1990 after purchasing state assets. So the Act Party’s push to redefine the Treaty principles is a calculated strategy to remove a significant barrier to their privatisation and deregulation agenda and of course to remove environmental protections. The Waitangi Tribunal’s recently released a report on the Bill describes the legal effect as removing Crown obligations under the existing Treaty principles, and removing te Tiriti guarantees, rights, and protections for Māori at law including those rights and guarantees that restrict the privatisation of state assets. This is surely not an unintended side-effect of the Treaty Principles Bill. Bomber's speech at the end was excellent; I identify as Tangata Tiriti and believe that we should all take responsibility as citizens of this country to uphold the promise of tino rangatiratanga enshrined in Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Toitū Te Tiriti!
Thank you Nick. I am somewhat dubious around debates, not for any reason in particular, but someone like Seymour ala Trump just rely on click bait and tired tropes and well basically lie in the face of overwhelming evidence. Today it feels like the norm, to just blatantly lie and say it often and long enough that many just switch off to the real issues at hand. The summary as you described was quite telling. Seymour's lack of passion probably underlines his lack of any credible philosophical, emotive convictions, beyond the dollar and being, well a clown with it. Helmut speaking of his daughters connection with Te Reo really resonated with me and was deeply moved by those words. As a Samoan with mokopuna who whakapapa to this land I feel strong emotionally knowing they have a better opportunity to engage and experience Te Reo Maori more openly today then may be their forebears of past years. People like Helmut help the fight to keep it that way. It's a lovely sunny morning here in Ahuriri.Nga Mihi Aroha koutou.
I had to laugh at your comment - ‘I thought to myself, “Really? How many of the things that happen in your day, your regular interactions, are primarily defined by race - I would suggest bugger all.” I automatically read/thought ‘humans’ instead of race as my view is he/ACT pretty much view us all(bottom feeders) as productive units rather than people, which more or less speaks to his view of the treaty just being something standing in the way of money and productivity for the people he deems worthy of being seen as ‘human’ by him and his.
It was a magnificent event and kudos to Bomber. I had never heard Helmut speak before and he was impressive. Seymour was really annoying in that he doesn't get the most basic about Te Tiriti in that it was an agreement between Maori and the Crown, not between two races as he likes to insist - perhaps that's deliberate. I agree with you about Bomber's closing talking about his daughter - it was very moving and I will think more kindly of him - at least until he goes off on another of his rants about identity politics or how we win the men back to the Left, because we think all men are rapists etc etc ! I do however follow him and occasionally comment on his blog. BHN did a review straight after with Matthew Tutaki on as a guest. That was great too. I am glad you got to go.
Oops Matthew Tukaki
I thought Helmut won the debate and spoke eloquently with conviction.
Seymour asserted that sovereignty was ceded but did not elaborate how or where that was done. Trump moment.
Thank you so much for this Nick as I didn’t get to watch the debate. The truth is of course that Helmet would always win against Seymour because he is able to present the truth around the Treaty. Seymour as you say is only in it for the politics and this is the politics as required of him, and as paid for, by the Atlas Network. Aotearoa deserves better than this charlatan. May our love of te reo continue to grow and flourish and may Te Tiriti be honoured as intended.
Why is he doing it? To get rid of possibly the strongest barrier to open slather exploitation of course. It's the reason Seymour is in parliament. Evil, dangerous man.
I agree!
Yes, he is Atlas to his rotten core.
I just wish that someone would point out to Seymour that if it wasn't for the Treaty he would not have the right to be in Parliament in this country, so he should be a bit more careful about putting his job at risk by seeking to chuck it out. A bit simplistic I know but seriously, how the heck does he think he has the right to speak for two completely independent legal parties to an international contract of which the government is really only a byproduct.
Good point Linda!
Apologies to Helmut
Aue Nick he is Helmut! Not Helmet as you've called him all through
Oops. I think it was from looking for songs and I looked for something from the band Helmet and it got stuck in my head. Updated now - alas not in the emails of course.
Thanks Nick, a great perspective on the debate, and so glad you were able to be there. I watched. I thought Helmut was by far and away the better speaker...he was informed, knowledgeable, steady, continued to make his points, and dignified. Seymour.....I think perhaps his 'robotic' persona is all about speaking to his crowd. He doesn't need to convince us...he knows we're already agin his Bill. It's for his supporters, and soon-to-be-supporters, who are ignorant of Aotearoa's history, have no concept of equity, and he can rekindle their fear of 'losing something' to Māori. Overwhelmingly most of the comments supported Helmut. But the racist ones revealed how far in the past they are, calling for an end to 'hand-outs' ....they are still in THAT space! So ripe and fertile for Seymour's rhetoric.
Damien Grant...first time I've heard him speak....errrr.....perhaps there needs to be a benchmark of understanding Te Tiriti, the breaches, the journeys by Māori to petition the British Crown on what was happening here, the endlessly peaceful avenues Māori have taken to address those breaches....I could go on.....that irked me the most...that Seymour and Grant could spout untruths and there will be a segment of the population out there who will believe them.
On a positive note, Bomber nailed it....the future is Māori and it's coming fast. Tangata Tiriti need to get on the waka with them! This is also another great opportunity to email our glorious leaders (:)) urging them to ditch the Principles Bill. Clearly the majority do not want it, it's bad for the country, and based on ACT (Atlas) lies.
It's a sunny day in Whakatū!
It should be a very simple evaluation, after screwing and abusing Maori for 150 years, is it ok to say forget all that, lets just carry on with White Privilege. The world over people are all different, yet all the same underneath, surely the only reason Maori are adversely represented in the wrong statistics, is due to not having the same advantages that White folk had. Exactly what White privilege is!
Nick, when are you going to spend a day in the press gallery? Awesome you were there to report the vibe as well as the words- thanks. I'd love a psychologist to interview David, Damien and a selection of Act supporters to see if the incident of psychopathic tendencies was higher than the whole population average. I suspect the aforementioned gents are right up there. Your observation of David being emotionless and robotic speaks volumes. Damien now spends his days trading in people's business misery legitimately, while being the ultimate sea-lion as his media sideline.
And yet, RNZ choose to lead their story with a quote from Seymour, perpetuating his perspective...
https://www.facebook.com/100064678723069/posts/pfbid02hXK5BpknBhiwd8o1yA8WqZ7BcvwqomwaZEug6nQjSHE6FDGR4g1da9ovUsUL3FbFl/?app=fbl
It must be pointed out to Seymour that we do ALL have equal rights as New Zealanders AND in addition to equal rights as New Zealanders Maori have rights under te Tiriti. Secondly te Tiriti is between Maori and the Crown. It's interpretation has evolved over the years via the courts and study by academics. Who is Seymour to come along and say he knows better - how is he qualified to do so.
Agree 💯 . I remember when you could get a Maori loan for a house I've forgotten what the correct name for it was I think if you could prove you had a small amount of Maori blood in you you could get a house loan I remember having a go at someone about helping themselves to the loan but wouldn't vote on the Maori roll or consider themselves part Maori any other time it always felt wrong to me. I think so much has been done wrong in the past so we have a lot to make up for.
One thing we need to remember about Seymour and Te Tiriti. Te Tiriti underpins a lot of our property law. Undermine that and everything is for sale. Forests, fisheries, land, the seabed, the lot. And THAT is what Seymour wants, Aotearoa totally for sale!
Yes, my son and I watched the debate. Seymour's a very smooth operator, and his co-opting of the language of universal human rights is clever and dangerous (I teach human rights at university). But universal human rights and cultural rights are not diametrically opposed, as Seymour would have his followers believe; and he totally ignores equity and indeed dignity, which are core human rights values. And of course he incessantly talks about race, rather than a Treaty between two peoples. As to his ridiculous asserton that nowhere in the world does co-governance work: I can immediately point to Sámi parliaments in Finland, Norway, and Sweden. Helmut did well in pointing out that Māori rangatira did not cede sovereignty when signing Te Tiriti, and Te Whakaputanga before it, but perhaps could have challenged Seymour about his attempts to remove Te Tiriti from legislation. I thought Helmut was eloquent and passionate, And Seymour articulate and manipulative (a good introduction as Voldemort, by Bomber). And, follow the money ... why is Seymour promoting the Treaty Principles Bill? The current Treaty principles are a significant obstacle to both corporatisation and privatisation and present a clear threat to any plans of future sale of public assets to the private sector. Look at who donated huge sums to the Act Party for the last election - e.g., the Gibbs family and Graeme Hart, who made a lot of money in 1990 after purchasing state assets. So the Act Party’s push to redefine the Treaty principles is a calculated strategy to remove a significant barrier to their privatisation and deregulation agenda and of course to remove environmental protections. The Waitangi Tribunal’s recently released a report on the Bill describes the legal effect as removing Crown obligations under the existing Treaty principles, and removing te Tiriti guarantees, rights, and protections for Māori at law including those rights and guarantees that restrict the privatisation of state assets. This is surely not an unintended side-effect of the Treaty Principles Bill. Bomber's speech at the end was excellent; I identify as Tangata Tiriti and believe that we should all take responsibility as citizens of this country to uphold the promise of tino rangatiratanga enshrined in Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Toitū Te Tiriti!